[edit number 3][edit number 2 ][edited 7 2 2022] other details

Published June 25, 2022
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I`ve had an exchange of ideas with JoeJ over the last week, several pages of discussion. Our exchange and some of the ideas i came up with make the basic principles to be followed in building terminator level robot. I`m not going to put all the chicken eggs into one basket so I`m letting you guys know that the information is on your server (GameDev.net server, my and JoeJ private message exchanges). I could make everything I talked about with JoeJ public, I`m not going to do it. Extra cautiousness is always better. Bye.

I have been told to post only once a week. I have stuff to say but one week has not passed since my last posting so instead of making a new blog entry I will add my ideas as an edit.

The title of my new post is ‘inverse pyramids’

I was describing previously that a path in interfaces/menus is established by finding matching menus, menus that have matching properties that is

Finding a path resembles two opposing pyramids. both pyramids have a common base. The common base is the middle of the path. The pyramids tips are the start and the end of the path.

1 In case of an realistic AI all existing menus are saved in a the same list/pool. A path is built by iterating through the menu list and selecting a menu that matches the required criteria. For example to find a path for saving some notepad text written in notepad: The first thing we think of is the save file dialog because that is how a file is saved. Save file dialog makes the tip of second pyramid. The next challenge is getting to that menu. We address the tip of the first pyramid. Save File Dialog is just one of the File Menus (a menu related to file operations) so we need to get File Menu number 1. File Menu number 1 is the first (root) menu that deals with working with files, in Notepad`s case that menu is the file submenu. The file submenu is saved in the common pool of menus of the realistic AI mind, we select it by finding a match between it notepad main window the match is the 'File' option on the Notepad`s ‘toolbar’. So this way we found the tip of the first pyramid. In our case saving a file is only a two step process (only two menus involved). If there were lets say two additional menus between the file submenu and save file dialog we would have had to search next the second menu from the tip in the second pyramid. and then the second menu from the first pyramid. When we search in the second pyramid each step provides us with additional information/refines the search which that helps us find an new step on the first pyramid.

In realistic AI for Starcraft things would work the same way. You start with tip of the second piramid which is some of your combat units next to the command center of the enemy, lets say some marines. So you build a tree/pyramid of actions to get you marines next to the enemy command center in say 10 minutes. Next thing you think is what could go wrong. A bad thing that could happen is some tanks that would kill your marines while theyre on their way to the command center. So you adapt your first pyramid version number 2 to cope with that (or pyramid version number 1 refined if you want to have only one inverse pyramid). When you build your pyramid 1 version number 2 you get additional information, like additional things that could go wrong. If you want to counter the tanks I was talking about previously you might want to build some of your own tanks, which means that you now have a tank factory in your plans/in your pyramid 1. thats additional information that you can use to build a new pyramid number 2 version. A tank factory added in your pyramid 1 means an extra vulnerability, this new vulnerability doesnt reflect as a new group of enemy units in the pyramid 2 but rather just as an additional target for the existing imagined/virtual enemy combat groups.

In my example when Im referring to tank defense as a thing that could go wrong, the idea of enemy having tanks is not something that occures randomly in AI`s mind it`s based on the conditions on the map you`re playing: the enemy race is human, the map type favors defense with tanks on high ground etc. Since in this case we`re talking about building the tip of the second pyramid (the end point of the game) the evaluation of the map conditions takes place right at the beginning of the game and is focused on the enemy spawn area (player map start position), later evaluations will take into account areas bordering the spawn location as well.

[edit number 2]

It`s not a full week since my last blog entry and I have stuff to say so I`m posting my ideas as an edit yet again.

I want to talk about the situation when you have not two players on the map (human vs AI driven or 2 AI players) but several AI players. Lets say you have a map with 4 AI players playing a 2 vs 2 game.

the question is how do you build the AI that needs to be aware about not one but three other players. How do you build your predictive tree of actions? In theory each AI player should be imagining another 3 action ladders/trees, one for each AI player and 3 reaction ladders of his own(or at least 2 ladders because one of the players is not enemy), one for every ladder of the enemy. The problem is that you have to 'merge' the three response ladders somehow because each of your units can do only one thing and not two or three in every moment. Like for instance lest say you have 12 marines and you have two access points in your base to defend, with each access point facing/being close to one of the enemy bases. You can`t place your 12 marines at the same time at both entrances. You don`t split your marines in two groups of 6 in order to assign one group per entrance either. If you do that your marines will be easily defeated by the enemy on the corresponding side of the map (each enemy presumably having 12 marines of their own). The way to solve the 4 players AI challenge is to consider that you only have two parties, two AI players playing against each other with the other 2 AI players playing a support role. Basically you are thinking that the units of the support players belong to the leading players. That`s my entry addition for today.

[edit number 3]

Quick word about morals. In an environment characterized by the presence of people morals make half of the decision making process. the other half is logic. The way the decision process works when humans are involved is that we first build the logical steps needed to achieve a goal. We then execute those steps but only imaginary (that is possible because you have a copy of the real word in your mind so you have fertile ground from which you can derive credible repercussions) Executing those steps creates consequences. These consequences need to undergo a moral compliance test. If the consequences of the actions (that make the solution to the problem the robot has to solve) the robot has projecting into the future pass the moral test the robot can procced to execute them.

Another idea, unrelated to the things described above is that when you execute an action ipoteticaly only if the conditions are right that creates a force feedback effect on you. Executing ipotetical actions on an empty map (a map with just one player) will create no feedback. Executing ipotetical actions on a map with another player( which is hostile) will produce feedback because the hostile player is action (retaliation) ready, under normal circumstances he will retaliate to each of your decisions.

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Comments

Calin

In Soviet Moldova we have what`s called broiler chicken, two to three times bigger than a normal chicken (female chickens are huge, but the roosters are even bigger), they cary eggs with two cores. I know all about farms.

June 25, 2022 11:58 AM
Calin

Are you hoping for a Russian invasion? that`s not a totally valid question, check the facts. they never left

June 25, 2022 01:06 PM
JoeJ

so I`m letting you guys know that the information is on your server (GameDev.net server, my and JoeJ private message exchanges). I could make everything I talked about with JoeJ public, I`m not going to do it. Extra cautiousness is always better. Bye.

Sometimes i think you take yourself a bit too serious, man.

But in case bad things will happen: No, i did not contribute to the development of Terminators! /:O\ I'm not guilty!

I should have used the time capsule more wisely, but… i saw the gods rockin'! What would you have done?

June 25, 2022 03:51 PM
Calin

I'm not guilty!

what kind(type) of guilt?

50 guilts needed to scratch my terminator project. Out of those only one is terminator related.

I`m not making public what I told you. If God Yahweh wants this project to happen he will make you change your mind.

June 25, 2022 04:05 PM
JoeJ

what kind(type) of guilt?

Well, you say there were pages of discussion, and at the end it became all clear to you, on how to make Terminator robots.
But from my perspective it looks very different. I made the usual proposals to focus on a potential next step for you, e.g. to work on a state machine and command queue for your RTS Units.
I did not notice your Terminator project now is successfully completed or what's the outcome. Idk who Yahweh is, or how Starcraft works.
And i don't know about valuable ideas worth to share or hide from a public either, nor do i think the public has any interest. Other than for entertainment, which i think we do provide... ahem… quite well.

So, by making a joke about guilt, i tried to distance myself from your depiction of something unknown to me, to be honest, and to be clear.
Listen: The reason PMs exist is so people can talk in private. You should never expose private conversation to the public without asking for agreement of the other.
It's not that i have a big problem with it, but somebody else in the future might have. So remember not doing this.

And don't speak in riddles.

they never left

A riddle. What does he mean? Do they lie to us, and Moldavia is not independent? Or do you talk about your political conviction of what should be?

If God Yahweh wants this project to happen he will make you change your mind.

Another riddle. I know about Jesus, Buddah, Mohammed, Elon Musk, and ofc. Led Zeppelin, the true gods. But that's it.

So if you want to say something, express it in a way to build up the necessary context. Other people can't read your mind.
Or if you don't want to say something, then don't mention it at all.

Maybe that's a bit personal, but you asked for it.

June 25, 2022 05:18 PM
Calin

Well, you say there were pages of discussion, and at the end it became all clear to you, on how to make Terminator robots.
But from my perspective it looks very different. I made the usual proposals to focus on a potential next step for you, e.g. to work on a state machine and command queue for your RTS Units.

How do you know what`s in my head (what I know and I don`t)? Air force one?

June 25, 2022 06:00 PM
JoeJ

I knew you would take that opportunity. ; )

Fair enough. Though, that was a very different situation. But with similar causes.

June 25, 2022 07:41 PM
Calin

What does he mean? Do they lie to us, and Moldavia is not independent?

The eastern part of Moldova known as Transnistria is under Russian occupation for many years

June 25, 2022 11:05 PM
JoeJ

The eastern part of Moldova known as Transnistria is under Russian occupation for many years

Interesting. I've learned the region feels close to Russia, but also wants to join EU. Probably the option of having both is gone for now. :/
From talking with some people i have the impression many in the eastern region of Europe sympathize more with Russia than with the west, causing a lot of ideological conflict.
So when the war started, Putin was depicted clearly as the aggressor here (Austria), but i was not sure how many people in the region actually agree with him, and how well we are informed about them.
I also notice increasing dissatisfaction with western ideology here where i live, and i have expected growing relationship with Russia. E.g. maybe to work on something useful, like making Tokamaks instead sending Teslas to Orbit.
But sadly that door is closed now too.
Though, probably that's Putins goal. The east west conflict will continue to grow over Europe, but instead approaching each other it will destabilize the political landscapes, also easing up some expansion of Russia if they can promise stability.

But i'm not really a political person and don't know much about it. I'm just sure things will go downhill now even faster.

How do you know what`s in my head (what I know and I don`t)? Air force one?

That's my point: I don't know what's in your head. And i don't want to be associated of contributing to something i don't know. But that's the incorrect impression i get from reading your blog posts.
I hope you understand this.

Wow, you're a huge hypocrite. The only person that has ever posted (tried to weaponize even) my private messages in a forum is lecturing about not doing that very thing.

How long do you intend to remember this incident? Was it really that bad?
Iirc, from my perspective it looked like you run over the yard, beating up everyone who has a handicap and can't resist. That surely wasn't nice form your side, details aside. You have to expect somebody may try to stop you, no?
Yes, it was wrong to expose things said in private. Yes, i'm an ass. And my action did not help anything anyway. I apologize.

Can we be fine now, or are we just done?

June 26, 2022 06:46 AM
Calin

JoeJ:

1 I can`t share portions of our discussion: thanks for teaching me how copyright works

2 You are correct I can`t bypass your free will but the Feds can

I`m sorry

June 26, 2022 05:16 PM
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