I know this is a hard concept to understand but it''s quite possible that different people can create games for different reasons and still enjoy it.
The artsy side can enjoy seeing their ideas become reality and enjoyed by others, The business side can enjoy seeing their orders come in, And those in the middle can have both.
The beauty of software is that it''s an empty canvas that you can do whatever you want with. Enjoy the canvas in your own way.
-j
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Basic Market Research for Indies
I have to chime in here because this sounds soooo familiar. I''m a musician - not for a living (yet), but I''ve been playing for many years. The whole "sell out" concept is thrown around by people who aren''t trying to make the move to being a full-time musician and they just don''t understand. I see the same thing possibly happening in these forums sometimes. There are choices you will have to make where one option may allow you to have more fun right now but the other option could be less fun but could make you ten times as much money and more quickly realize your dream of being a full time independent game developer.
Going back to the music business, I''m in a band right now that I think is amazingly talented and I think we write great music, but it''s complicated and hard to follow for the casual music listener. I want to be a full time musician more than anything. Is it "selling out" if I make a realistic decision to start or join a band that makes more commercially accessable music? Sure, I''d rather be successful playing the kind of crazy music I prefer to listen to, but I''d rather be a full time working musician than a part time hobbyist and a 9-5 employee in a job I don''t care about at all.
I used to be one of the hardcore metalheads crying "sellout" at every band on the radio, but the past few years have given me some perspective. I believe that perspective can be applied directly to independent game development. The public wants what it wants, and if you try to sell them something else you will usually fail. You can sell them what they want without compromising your integrity by creating the best product you can that fits the public''s desires.
Going back to the music business, I''m in a band right now that I think is amazingly talented and I think we write great music, but it''s complicated and hard to follow for the casual music listener. I want to be a full time musician more than anything. Is it "selling out" if I make a realistic decision to start or join a band that makes more commercially accessable music? Sure, I''d rather be successful playing the kind of crazy music I prefer to listen to, but I''d rather be a full time working musician than a part time hobbyist and a 9-5 employee in a job I don''t care about at all.
I used to be one of the hardcore metalheads crying "sellout" at every band on the radio, but the past few years have given me some perspective. I believe that perspective can be applied directly to independent game development. The public wants what it wants, and if you try to sell them something else you will usually fail. You can sell them what they want without compromising your integrity by creating the best product you can that fits the public''s desires.
I get a little bit of that for wanting to make games based on my old code (i''m making two sequels to the game i''ve just finished) and i''m trying to sell all my games (well i''m just starting at any rate.
Sellout is a bit of a misnomer, since anyone who attempts to make money with what they''re doing is at least selling out a "little bit" (you sell out because you make a game you wouldn''t normally play because it sells well)
In my definition a true sellout would be one that comprimises his own ethical and moral values for money. That is, I know that pornography makes big money, and i''m opposed to pornography but with that if I made a website that started making money on porn, I would be ''selling out'' and possibly a hypocrite, because I comprimised what I thought or said were my moral and ethical views.
As far as Steve imparting his knowledge, maybe he does have an alterior motive, but maybe it''s that we take his advice and make the shareware market as important and as lucrative as it used to be when the net started out. I, for one, am glad he makes these posts, because any legup I can get, i''ll be glad to take.
Keith
ps. Heh, I just finished my webpage, this is the temporary version on http://www10.brinkster.com/uhfgood/ -- I will be
starting to provide content in the coming weeks, and also moving that to my actual webhost, (still waiting for my domain name to be attached to my ip)
Sellout is a bit of a misnomer, since anyone who attempts to make money with what they''re doing is at least selling out a "little bit" (you sell out because you make a game you wouldn''t normally play because it sells well)
In my definition a true sellout would be one that comprimises his own ethical and moral values for money. That is, I know that pornography makes big money, and i''m opposed to pornography but with that if I made a website that started making money on porn, I would be ''selling out'' and possibly a hypocrite, because I comprimised what I thought or said were my moral and ethical views.
As far as Steve imparting his knowledge, maybe he does have an alterior motive, but maybe it''s that we take his advice and make the shareware market as important and as lucrative as it used to be when the net started out. I, for one, am glad he makes these posts, because any legup I can get, i''ll be glad to take.
Keith
ps. Heh, I just finished my webpage, this is the temporary version on http://www10.brinkster.com/uhfgood/ -- I will be
starting to provide content in the coming weeks, and also moving that to my actual webhost, (still waiting for my domain name to be attached to my ip)
I dunno about you guys, but I actually enjoy the task of developing the game itself. I like the feeling when I create an algorithm that works, or fix something the artist/designer has been nagging about. I may not enjoy the actual game (my personal preference is closer to Baldur''s Gate than it is to Dweep Gold), but I certainly enjoy making it a lot more than I would making spreadsheets.
If my job, and my hobby, also happens to be the thing that gets me that ferrari in the end, so much the better
Allan
If my job, and my hobby, also happens to be the thing that gets me that ferrari in the end, so much the better
Allan
Personally, while I would prefer making games, I think I would enjoy having any kind of business even if it was making spreadsheet software. The fact that it''s my own business would matter more to me than what I would be doing in it (within reasonable constraints of course). In my opinion there''s a big difference between making spreadsheet software because it''s your job and doing it because it''s your business. I guess that''s just me though.
What I think is going on here is everyone is trying to group "HOBBY" and "BUSINESS" into the same catagory. A hobby is something that you do that makes you happy and you could careless what other people think as long as you are getting your personal gratification out of it. Hobbies also usually cost you more then you will ever make(be it money, time, whatever)
Business, on the other hand, has profit as it''s main goal from it''s onset. You research your market, base your product on what the masses currently want and just do it. Nobody will ever like 100% of every aspect of what it takes to do business. While some of it will be fun and the end result, if done correctly, can be very rewarding it just isn''t for everyone. Running a successful business regardless of the field you choose will take hard work and doing things that may not be very exciting to you but it is part of the whole scheme of things.
I currently run a couple of small businesses doing things that I LOVE. One is a computer repair/consulting company and another is Rehabbing houses. I love doing both but there are aspects in each that I loath but I still have to do it to make sure it runs smoothly and ensures myself a profit since I am not doing this as a charity or a HOBBY.
Doing what it takes to run a profitable business would definitaly not be considered "selling out". It''s called good business sense. I also read a post(just skimmed over most) that was said they thought that Dexterity had an exterior motive to post this article so he can get more business for himself. WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MATTER?!?!? He is helping out out at the same time by sharing his market research so you won''t have to do as much and if you did follow his advice and make the next great puzzle/logic game and just happened to get it published through Dexterity and make a nice chunk of change from it I would be thinking him not accusing!
Just my opinion,
OME
Business, on the other hand, has profit as it''s main goal from it''s onset. You research your market, base your product on what the masses currently want and just do it. Nobody will ever like 100% of every aspect of what it takes to do business. While some of it will be fun and the end result, if done correctly, can be very rewarding it just isn''t for everyone. Running a successful business regardless of the field you choose will take hard work and doing things that may not be very exciting to you but it is part of the whole scheme of things.
I currently run a couple of small businesses doing things that I LOVE. One is a computer repair/consulting company and another is Rehabbing houses. I love doing both but there are aspects in each that I loath but I still have to do it to make sure it runs smoothly and ensures myself a profit since I am not doing this as a charity or a HOBBY.
Doing what it takes to run a profitable business would definitaly not be considered "selling out". It''s called good business sense. I also read a post(just skimmed over most) that was said they thought that Dexterity had an exterior motive to post this article so he can get more business for himself. WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MATTER?!?!? He is helping out out at the same time by sharing his market research so you won''t have to do as much and if you did follow his advice and make the next great puzzle/logic game and just happened to get it published through Dexterity and make a nice chunk of change from it I would be thinking him not accusing!
Just my opinion,
OME
If it is of any interest: I just checked the statistics of downloadpal.com and I get 1/3 less visitors for the puzzle games section than for action games (or strategy games as well).
(uncommented fact, of course those who like puzzles might buy for frequently, etc. -> uncommented).
(uncommented fact, of course those who like puzzles might buy for frequently, etc. -> uncommented).
I don''t know where this selling out idea came from. I wasn''t implying people are doing that if they make puzzle games. If your goal is to make money, that’s great. If you want to make something you would like to play that’s fine also. I think people should do what makes them happy.
Personally I will never make something I''m not interested in. I wouldn''t care enough to make it fun to play and no one would want to buy it.
Dexerity said there’s a big market for puzzle games. However I don''t believe it''s the case that anyone who makes a puzzle game will make money. In any field the market leaders make money and the rest do poorly.
That’s why I''ll keep doing what I''m doing. I''d rather make no money working on something I love than make nothing working on something I despise.
If someone was paying me by the hour to create a puzzle game that would be a different story.
Personally I will never make something I''m not interested in. I wouldn''t care enough to make it fun to play and no one would want to buy it.
Dexerity said there’s a big market for puzzle games. However I don''t believe it''s the case that anyone who makes a puzzle game will make money. In any field the market leaders make money and the rest do poorly.
That’s why I''ll keep doing what I''m doing. I''d rather make no money working on something I love than make nothing working on something I despise.
If someone was paying me by the hour to create a puzzle game that would be a different story.
quote: Original post by Davaris
Dexerity said there’s a big market for puzzle games. However I don't believe it's the case that anyone who makes a puzzle game will make money. In any field the market leaders make money and the rest do poorly.
Of course. Its just that puzzle games is one of those fields that is ripe for independant developers. The big publishers don't bother with it. Whether that is because its not big enough for them to make enough money or if they just don't see it as being viable for them, I don't know. I think publishers like games that they can sell in huge numbers for $40-$50 for 3-6 months and then just forget about it and let it find its way to the discount bin. Puzzle games don't really have the same sudden-star appeal for everyone to flock to it all at once (that privilege is reserved for RPG/FPS/RTS games...where the hardcode gamers usually are). They are the type that generate steady sales over a few year, and thats probably just too much work for the big publishers to worry about.
So as a result, puzzle games are one of those categories that sells well, yet is relatively safe from the big time competition.
Ron Frazier
Kronos Software
www.kronos-software.com
Miko & Molly - Taking Puzzle Games to A Whole New Dimension
[edited by - LordKronos on August 5, 2002 7:48:13 AM]
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