quote: Original post by Ramsess
And what are you think about business of outsourcing progamming?

I think this is a new trend to outsource most IT, not sure about programmers. I know people who work at EMI and most of their IT staff is outsourced, but that is in the arena of sysadmins etc.

I guess a short term contract of 6 months etc. seems like a valid idea, less tax for the company and they can easily get rid of you without much hassel.

I think Semus Blackley left being one of the lead PMs for the XBox to go do just that. His idea was to make a middle layer company that acted as an interface between publishers and developers. They would score a deal for a game from the publisher then hand pick a team to make the game. Once the game was done the developers would be free to go or perhaps interview to get on with another project in development.

Seems like it might work, only time will tell.

quote: Original post by Nicolas Bischoff

Original post by Ramsess
And what are you think about business of outsourcing progamming?

I think this is a new trend to outsource most IT, not sure about programmers. I know people who work at EMI and most of their IT staff is outsourced, but that is in the arena of sysadmins etc.

I guess a short term contract of 6 months etc. seems like a valid idea, less tax for the company and they can easily get rid of you without much hassel.



Unfortunatly, you''ll be competing with programmers in India and China for that cash.. Not certain about Indian prices, but in China, a university graduate programmer can be had for around 150-250 USD/month..

This probably hasn''t propogated to Europe yet (labor laws are stricter, and less flexible), but you can already spot US developers outsouring low-skillset, high-manpower elements to Indian developers (EA and UO ?)

Allan


Fe doeyr, Frender Doeyr,Ein sjoelv doeyr paa sama vis.
Eg veit et som aldri doeyr, dom over kvar ein doed.
Cattle die, Friends die, You yourself will also die.
I know something that never dies, the memory of every dead.

Unfortunatly, you''ll be competing with programmers in India and China for that cash.. Not certain about Indian prices, but in China, a university graduate programmer can be had for around 150-250 USD/month..

This probably hasn''t propogated to Europe yet (labor laws are stricter, and less flexible), but you can already spot US developers outsouring low-skillset, high-manpower elements to Indian developers (EA and UO ?)


You are almost correct. I am from India and the usual pay ranges from $200 - $800 PM. and entry level is around $300-$400. Experienced programmers get more.



Everyone Wants to goto heaven, but no one wants to die!!!

Where do you find these programmers?

John

one point; no intended slight to Boss, but a lot of companies have gotten burned trying to work with Chinese and Indian companies or individuals. Here in Singapore the goverment is actively encouraging it (there''s no labor-protection worth the name here), and the term used by people I''ve spoken with is "black hole sucking in money". Unless you or one of your co-owners are rooted in the culture yourself (either by being main-land chinese, or by living there, and using this to manage the contracts), it''s quite possible and often probable, to get scammed. Life''s cheap, IP rights virtually ignored, and if you can take a stupid Sei Quai Lo (Red haired ghost) for a couple of million dollars, noone will cry about it (unless you''re big enough to trouble the sentral government)..

Either you find a partner you can truely trust, or you license it out to a dedicated sub-contracter. Just be sure to double-read your contracts, and specify plenty of room to check on quality and progress. For a simple example, have a look at this article:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20020830/wen_01.htm

Note that this was a Chinese company, working in China. Multiply this by x10 if you''re only available to get there by flying in from US/UK. Another x10 if you don''t speak the language, and don''t have any real grasp on the culture. And another x10 if they''re not impressed with you (face factor)..

Good luck

Allan

Fe doeyr, Frender Doeyr,Ein sjoelv doeyr paa sama vis.
Eg veit et som aldri doeyr, dom over kvar ein doed.
Cattle die, Friends die, You yourself will also die.
I know something that never dies, the memory of every dead.

I have to agree here.

Bascially, THONA Consulting had a development office in Moscow. After about ahlf a year we scrapped it overnight - uality coming out of it was never on par.

We had a couple of non-european people on staff then, and have eparated from all of them.

Basically, we are missing a "feeling for quality". Sad but true. When used to be paid little, there is no incentive to make good work - basically shabby work, being redone when necesary, is cheaper. This sticks to the work style.

I knwo a couple of companies which got burned using even companies in poland - and that is a 2 hour drive from berlin and people have no problem coming to the customer. When you start dealing with ssomething taking a day to reach, matters get worse.


Regards

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)

Note; that''s a caveat, not a do not do.

You can find individuals or groups in either of these countries (or the rest of Asia) who truely believe in Quality, and in delivering. You need to be carefull, though, and it''s advisable to team up with someone you trust that has connections in the country (having his uncle running the studio there is not uncommon... blood is a lot thicker than ink).

There''s also a lot to be said for hiring an entire team for the same price you pay for a west-coast Lead-coder.

Allan


Fe doeyr, Frender Doeyr,Ein sjoelv doeyr paa sama vis.
Eg veit et som aldri doeyr, dom over kvar ein doed.
Cattle die, Friends die, You yourself will also die.
I know something that never dies, the memory of every dead.