Dear Alex De Vries,
I must still object to the phrase "it's none of your business". I feel it's quite simply too strong a statement. When your developers sign confidentiality agreements responsability falls on them not to disclose any information. A person who asks for this information does nothing wrong. He is only asking for information, not demanding or stealing it. The developer should simply deny him such information, as is required by the contract. The problem with "none of your business" is simply that it it attempts to limit what my concerns might be (who better than I to do this) and is far too critical of an individual who tries to acquire information in a straight manner (by asking).
Regarding what others have said, I can definitely see the value of positive comments on experiences with publishers. Of course, this requires an unbiased source.
PS - Alex: Although I've hinted at it before I wish to state once more that I've nothing against your company. In fact, you're currently irrelevant to me given that I'm not working on any games that might be considered budget software. My interest on this topic is primarily philosophical.
Edited by - chronos on July 16, 2000 8:19:20 PM
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On Publisher Reputations
>When your developers sign confidentiality agreements responsability falls on them not to disclose any information.
Do some publisher contracts include confidentiality agreements that may even prohibit how well/bad the publisher has been?
If some include such agreements, isn''t it illegal to write such information confidentiality agreements?
Bob
Do some publisher contracts include confidentiality agreements that may even prohibit how well/bad the publisher has been?
If some include such agreements, isn''t it illegal to write such information confidentiality agreements?
Bob
Yes, I believe you may sign a confidentiality agreement but in many countries if the company doesn''t fulfil it''s responsibilities or is simply a horrible company that country often has some sort of area to report these sort of companies too. Here in Canada we have the Better Business Burea (BBB) Which I believe may also cover the United States. If let''s say we want to know if a canadian publisher is *bad* we can call or look on the web through the better business burea and it will tell us what businesses have been reported as bad or dificult to deal with. You can also become a member of the BBB as a business and they''ll contact an inspection of your business watch what you do for a while and if your a good business you''ll be BBB certifide and if some goes looking for info about your company they''ll find that your a good company!
So yes there is a limit... also there''s troubles with international agreements, if a Canadian Game was to be published in the UK the contracts don''t cover so far, because your legal system does not govern me, only the agreements between our countries.
Just my 2 cents.
- Ben
So yes there is a limit... also there''s troubles with international agreements, if a Canadian Game was to be published in the UK the contracts don''t cover so far, because your legal system does not govern me, only the agreements between our countries.
Just my 2 cents.
- Ben
Author
Anonymous,
Is it illegal? Should it be? I don''t really know, but if you ever find you''ve been mistreated by a publisher with whom you''ve signed such an agreement you should certainly consider a lawsuit. I''m not a lawyer, so I could be wrong about this, but as I understand it a confidentiality agreement will not prevent you from making a detailed complaint as part of your case. You provide whatever information you must to prove your case, regardless of any agreement you have with the publisher. I''m sure the media would pick up on some of this information and people would therefore learn of the publisher''s questionable practices.
Again I must warn you that I don''t really know what I''m talking about. Someone please correct me if I''m wrong. Still, if you ever find you''ve been mistreated it would be very wise to consult a lawyer to explain what your options are.
Is it illegal? Should it be? I don''t really know, but if you ever find you''ve been mistreated by a publisher with whom you''ve signed such an agreement you should certainly consider a lawsuit. I''m not a lawyer, so I could be wrong about this, but as I understand it a confidentiality agreement will not prevent you from making a detailed complaint as part of your case. You provide whatever information you must to prove your case, regardless of any agreement you have with the publisher. I''m sure the media would pick up on some of this information and people would therefore learn of the publisher''s questionable practices.
Again I must warn you that I don''t really know what I''m talking about. Someone please correct me if I''m wrong. Still, if you ever find you''ve been mistreated it would be very wise to consult a lawyer to explain what your options are.
Dear Alex,
It would be cool if you would comment postings not only concerning your company too, like the answer you gave about what I said about Looking Glass. It could prove very useful to see different topics from a different point of view (not the developers, but the publishers).
Cu.
To the other posters about confidential agreements:
Would you like the publisher to tell other people that you (for example) get XY% Royalty and the game sold XY times and you got a check about XYZ$ in december???
I would not! This is confidential information!
Now on the other hand. If you tell XYZ that your game XYZ has sold very bad with publisher XYZ and he spreads this information the publisher XYZ reputation will be lowered. But wheather a game sells good or bad not only depends on the publisher! The quality and PUBLICITY (how the people like it) is important!
So it''s sure that a publisher doesn''t want everyone who had a bad deal (because of the developers faults) to tell everyone that it was the publishers fault.
Again, if you ask me, keep away that paranoia from your mind. Optimism! That''s it.
And keep the discussion positive!
It would be cool if you would comment postings not only concerning your company too, like the answer you gave about what I said about Looking Glass. It could prove very useful to see different topics from a different point of view (not the developers, but the publishers).
Cu.
To the other posters about confidential agreements:
Would you like the publisher to tell other people that you (for example) get XY% Royalty and the game sold XY times and you got a check about XYZ$ in december???
I would not! This is confidential information!
Now on the other hand. If you tell XYZ that your game XYZ has sold very bad with publisher XYZ and he spreads this information the publisher XYZ reputation will be lowered. But wheather a game sells good or bad not only depends on the publisher! The quality and PUBLICITY (how the people like it) is important!
So it''s sure that a publisher doesn''t want everyone who had a bad deal (because of the developers faults) to tell everyone that it was the publishers fault.
Again, if you ask me, keep away that paranoia from your mind. Optimism! That''s it.
And keep the discussion positive!
cyberben and chronos, thank you for suggestions on how to treat possible complaint. So far, it seems OK, but still am cautious.
Bob
Bob
Author
Jester101,
I think you are simplifying things a bit too much. We could argue day and night about what exactly should be considered confidential information, but this would accomplish very little. In any case, the sort of experiences with publishers I''m referring to are far less specific than the examples you give. I''m speaking of "failure to perform or deliver" and "questionable business practices". These are things developers considering a relationship with a publisher would want to know about. No doubt these too are subject to interpretation, but they are still very different from the examples you give.
One thing I will say about confidential information is that sides do matter. To put a spin of your examples, I see nothing wrong in telling my friends how much money I''ve made from my game or how many copies of the game have been sold. Likewise, if my side has been cheated or otherwise mistreated, why should I not be able to unmask the villain? It is in such cases that I question the ethical value of a confidentiality agreement (and the law does too, I believe, under the proper circumstances).
I think you are simplifying things a bit too much. We could argue day and night about what exactly should be considered confidential information, but this would accomplish very little. In any case, the sort of experiences with publishers I''m referring to are far less specific than the examples you give. I''m speaking of "failure to perform or deliver" and "questionable business practices". These are things developers considering a relationship with a publisher would want to know about. No doubt these too are subject to interpretation, but they are still very different from the examples you give.
One thing I will say about confidential information is that sides do matter. To put a spin of your examples, I see nothing wrong in telling my friends how much money I''ve made from my game or how many copies of the game have been sold. Likewise, if my side has been cheated or otherwise mistreated, why should I not be able to unmask the villain? It is in such cases that I question the ethical value of a confidentiality agreement (and the law does too, I believe, under the proper circumstances).
Well, I understand that some people might think different about telling their friends about sale volumes and the like.
I for my part keep this information, because (if I may use this term) it is none of their business.
I really can''t go into detail why it is in your personal interest to keep this information confidential (because it is confidential
). If this "confidential clause" is a reason for you not to sign a contract, well ok, it''s up to you.
But please don''t blame the ones who are demanding to keep information confidential. If you don''t like them, don''t do business with them.
I for my part keep this information, because (if I may use this term) it is none of their business.
I really can''t go into detail why it is in your personal interest to keep this information confidential (because it is confidential
). If this "confidential clause" is a reason for you not to sign a contract, well ok, it''s up to you. But please don''t blame the ones who are demanding to keep information confidential. If you don''t like them, don''t do business with them.
Despite how it may seem to people outside the game development industry, it''s actually a rather small industry.
The number of people involved is almost miniscule, and while you probably won''t ever know everybody, everybody is only a couple of steps away from each other, at most.
What this means, is that while you might not know anyone at Publisher A, you probably know Developer B, who works with Game Designer C who *does* know someone at Publisher A. And you can assume that people at the different publishing houses *do* know each, at least in passing from attending the same conferences a couple years in a row.
So if Developer B has a bad experience with Publisher A and airs his dirty laundry in public, he''s not doing himself any favors. For one, his bad experience will have a completely different spin when related by the people at Publisher A when they talk to their other publishing friends and contacts. For another, it displays a certain amount of unprofessionalism to publicize contract details.
Besides, Developer B''s bad experience might have been *his* fault, and not the publishers. Publishers are so often painted as the "bad guys" in game development, but that''s not always the case.
It''s simply a no-win situation.
What it boils down to is this: If you want the real "reputation" for a publisher, or a game development company, you''ll need to conduct your survey with personal contacts in private, probably even face-to-face (and maybe after a couple of beers). The kind of information you''re trolling for isn''t going to be in public forums.
PS I know that I, as moderator, did not delete the other thread in question. I''m not sure what happened to it.
DavidRM
Samu Games
The number of people involved is almost miniscule, and while you probably won''t ever know everybody, everybody is only a couple of steps away from each other, at most.
What this means, is that while you might not know anyone at Publisher A, you probably know Developer B, who works with Game Designer C who *does* know someone at Publisher A. And you can assume that people at the different publishing houses *do* know each, at least in passing from attending the same conferences a couple years in a row.
So if Developer B has a bad experience with Publisher A and airs his dirty laundry in public, he''s not doing himself any favors. For one, his bad experience will have a completely different spin when related by the people at Publisher A when they talk to their other publishing friends and contacts. For another, it displays a certain amount of unprofessionalism to publicize contract details.
Besides, Developer B''s bad experience might have been *his* fault, and not the publishers. Publishers are so often painted as the "bad guys" in game development, but that''s not always the case.
It''s simply a no-win situation.
What it boils down to is this: If you want the real "reputation" for a publisher, or a game development company, you''ll need to conduct your survey with personal contacts in private, probably even face-to-face (and maybe after a couple of beers). The kind of information you''re trolling for isn''t going to be in public forums.
PS I know that I, as moderator, did not delete the other thread in question. I''m not sure what happened to it.
DavidRM
Samu Games
Author
Jester101,
Given that I value privacy I'll agree that confidentiality is not in itself a bad thing. But I must insist once again that there are situations in which forced silence is quite simply wrong. I see no reason to tolerate an abusive confidentiality clause. To protest against unfairness is a very important form of speech.
As for the dreaded "it's none of your business" bit, don't let me stop you from using it. Perhaps you feel it's appropriate given that a person has asked you for information you don't want to share. Then again think of that friend you've just insulted by telling him "it's none of your business" instead of something less strong and overused. Instead of deciding for me what I shouldn't want to know, why not simply decide what you won't allow me to know? Sharing is by consent; I can ask and you can refuse. If you don't refuse, but can and should, it's really your fault isn't it?
DavidRM,
I suppose its true that "airing your dirty laundry" might possibly backfire against you. And yes, there are certain situations where the developer, not the publisher, may be at fault. How can a publisher sell a hopelessly buggy game?
The possibility of this shouldn't preclude my ability to protest with facts. Just like there are situations that are higly subjective, there's many that are not. Sometimes a publisher is clearly in the wrong and others deserve to know this.
Edited by - chronos on July 17, 2000 6:49:52 PM
Given that I value privacy I'll agree that confidentiality is not in itself a bad thing. But I must insist once again that there are situations in which forced silence is quite simply wrong. I see no reason to tolerate an abusive confidentiality clause. To protest against unfairness is a very important form of speech.
As for the dreaded "it's none of your business" bit, don't let me stop you from using it. Perhaps you feel it's appropriate given that a person has asked you for information you don't want to share. Then again think of that friend you've just insulted by telling him "it's none of your business" instead of something less strong and overused. Instead of deciding for me what I shouldn't want to know, why not simply decide what you won't allow me to know? Sharing is by consent; I can ask and you can refuse. If you don't refuse, but can and should, it's really your fault isn't it?
DavidRM,
I suppose its true that "airing your dirty laundry" might possibly backfire against you. And yes, there are certain situations where the developer, not the publisher, may be at fault. How can a publisher sell a hopelessly buggy game?
The possibility of this shouldn't preclude my ability to protest with facts. Just like there are situations that are higly subjective, there's many that are not. Sometimes a publisher is clearly in the wrong and others deserve to know this.
Edited by - chronos on July 17, 2000 6:49:52 PM
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