HI all,


Maximus - Because you can go above/under blocks, doesn''t make a game 3D. That effect is very easily achieved with 2D, they may have given the gfx 3D coordinates or a method similar, but the doesn''t neccessarily make it a bona-fide 3D game. The new GTA is at the moment titled GTA 3D, which speaks for itself.


Supernova - I am very much aware of what target audience games are aimed at. The PC top ten may be as it is, but that is nothing compared to the console sales, which is where the money is for development.
Don''t get me wrong, being a game designer, I know what makes a great game (as far as one person can, of course), and the gfx don''t have to be the best, as long as they provide the best setting/atmosphere for your particular game.

Let me tell you about the project my company is working on, which is currently in the hands of publishers.
Basically it''s a game in the style of Dance-Dance-Revolution, music plays/arrows scroll up/ and you have to dance in time with the music (with a specially designed dancemat). Now, since the game is based on a famous ''pop-group'', the plan was to use a 2D main character who can dance with you and show you the timing and such.
This looked good and worked very well, until a large publisher (clue: GTA) decided that they wanted 3D in there somewhere with motion capture, which meant in the 11th hour I had to rush through a full 3D routine (including plug-in) to meet the deadline.

This does look very good, but it''s not neccessarily better, nor does it change the gameplay. The only thing it does is get a few more sales.


Now I''m very much in favour of 2D games that play well, although lets not forget the fact that 3D game can be better IF the gameplay is right, because you can get immersed in them more. I challenge anyone to try and argue that Alien3 on the Snes/Megadrive is anywhere near close to the atmosphere in Aliens vs Predator (PC 3D-FPS).


I''m looking to go back to 2D routes by using the GBA, which will be very fun to do.


Marc.


BTW: Half-life/System-Shock-2/Rogue Spear are all gameplay loaded FPS games, especially SS2, which perfectly added a very good touch of RPG...

I myself am not arguing what GTA1 is, to be honest I haven''t got a copy to try out and see, it''s been a long time since I''ve played it! However, I use D3D and OpenGL to display 2D gfx, the PSX actually draws sprites as textures, but that doesn''t mean they are 3D games.

It''s an interesting point actually, where is the 2D/3D line? There are many 3D games with 2D backdrops, and mixtures. I suppose that most people will call a game 3D if it has even a little bit.


Half-Life used the Quake2 engine. I should also imagine that Quake1 used very little, if any, doom code.



Cheers,


Marc.

Hi,

Thanx for clearing that up. It''s like I said, you can define sprites in a 3D world with z coordinates, but it doesn''t make it a 3D object.

As a side point, are you still in the industry? Which company are you with?


Marc.

Just want to clear a few thing:
- GTA was 3D, because it supported Glide(Vodooo cards). But it had 2D sprites.

- Counter-Strike is also full 3D, because it supports D3D, OGL. And it uses Quake2''s engine, not Quake 1.

But anyway. I like 2D more then 3D. Well, maybe 3D is better. But most 3D games has such bad game play, and often start to go slower as soon as there are a few polygons more on screen.

But 2D is better to stick with if your a newby programmer and want to publish a game.

/MindWipe

"If it doesn''t fit, force it; if it breaks, it needed replacement anyway."

I totally disagree, just because a game uses D3D/OpenGL/Glide, it doesn''t automatically make it a 3D game.


I once made a side on shooter, which was fully 2D, but it did support the Voodoo cards, does that make it 3D?

What about if you had an emulator for, say a Megadrive/Genesis, and that supported Voodoo cards, does that make all those games 3D?


Like the guy said, Logically GTA1 does use a 3D coordinate system. Just using a coordinate system, does not make the game 3D, it just gives the game an illusion of depth.


Cheers,


Marc.

"MOST 3D games are loved by zit faced kids, not the masses with the money.. a lot of you seem to forget that.."

Where are you getting your information from? Most 3D games are loved by zit faced kids? Not the masses with the money? Come on, you don''t really think that only kids like 3D games, for a start, I like 3D games and I''m no kid. I like games that I enjoy playing, be they 2D or 3D.

"very few top-selling games are 3D.."

Again, where is this information coming from? Even if the PC top ten doesn''t have many 3D games, PC games hold a very small % of games sold worldwide, just look at any reliable list and count how many PC games make it into the top 50? or 100?



Now, again, I myself will go out and buy a 2D game if it''s good, but people also seem to forget that just because a game is 3D, it doesn''t automatically have no gameplay! I could name hundreds of crap 2D games, as well as 3D ones.........

I''m currently setting teams up to work on 2D games for the GBA, and I''m hoping to get some of them onto the PSX and even PC.


To the original post, a game does not neccessarily have to have the best gfx to sell well, BUT it may be a struggle to get a good publisher to look at it. Unfortunate, but true.


Marc.